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What a great idea! Build two

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

Michael,   
Go for it and savor this wonderful opportunity and transforming moment in your career. It's funny, I find myself in the same position, but coming from the opposite side of the fence: I've built several successful classicals, but right now I'm delving into the world of steel string acoustics and definitely feel it is helping my approach to classical building. I'm building an SJ for a client whom I am grateful for his trust and another SJ for the most picky client of them all--me!
   My suggestion is to follow a plan that is tried, true and robust, and with your excellent skills you will do great. As for me, I am pretty confident that I will be successful on my SJ's because I am following a great plan--yours! Best of luck!

   

Do it! I also say build two, but build them both to the highest standard. Let her choose her poison. Borrow the "good" Pimentel and poke arround a bit. Play it, touch it, smell it, measure it.

You'll do fine. I would talk to a few folks that build both steel string and classical. They are very different animals and require a bit of a different mindset. Not that I'm any kind of authority on the subject but I think the tendancy is to overbrace them. I've read it explained that the sound of a steel sting needs to be controled by the builder and the sound of a classical needs to be released by the builder.

Best of luck... we're gonna want sound samples...

You know what? I really like Ronn's suggestion. Build 2, let her choose the one she wants. But even if you only build the one, I suspect she's going to like it just fine.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Yes of course you do, life gets very boring if we just exist within our comfort zones.

Recently, Russell was concerned about building his first classical for a very special customer (he detailed it here), and we had a number of converstaions about his building it, and we decided eventually that he would. He went with the Fleta design, so had the comfort of a bolt on neck, and the guitar turned out superbly, sounded great and the customer was over the moon.   Michael you are a great builder of course you can pull it off. Involve the client at all stages so that they have an emotional attachment to it from the word go, and talk to Robbie, Joshua, John, Michael etc as you go.

If an old steel string builder like me can build Lutes that can be acccepted at the Royal College of Music, then you can most certainly build a classical guitar! Heck build a range of them, if she's a teacher then she has students who'll need guitars.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I too say go for it, you've been honest and up-front with her, her decision was based on a set of factors which do set up real expectations, and I think you can exceed those.

Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

Michael, I agree with some of the others. Money back guarantee! If it goes wrong, you both walk away ok, you get the experience, she lost nothing. Then try another down the road and maybe she'll want that one. Experience. You can't go wrong. your honest and up front. My feeling if she liked your steel string enough, SHE'LL LOVE IT! Go for it!

EDIT: [NOTE TO SELF - NO UPSIDE IN PARTICIPATING IN THREADS OF THIS TYPE OF TOPIC ]Anthony Z38998.3329976852

[quote] Your guitar will probably sound good to the average steel string player.
I suspect most classical players are more particular about tone and generally know more about what they want in terms of tone than steel string players. Talk to classical players about tone and dynamics and compare that to how steel string players describe their instruments. There is, generally speaking, a big difference with the classical players using more sophisticated language and imagery in their descriptions. They tend to know their instruments better.
If this buyer is a gifted player, she is likely going to be specific about tone in ways that you, based on your experience, can not deliver[/quote]

What a load !!!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Michael, sure, go ahead.
What I would do for sure, is to let her explain what she likes about the one Pimentel, and dislikes about the other. Have her play them both and describe her thoughts on each. As she tells you about her likes / dislikes, you will be learning a lot about the classical mindset, and have more of a target sound in your ear. I think that would be a great learning experience.

And, as much as I like Sitka (didn't you say she wanted Sitka?), I'd try to talk her into a good European top.

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

"What a load!!!"

Oh come on, Steve put forward a very reasonable point of view, and was careful to make the following statement as well:

"OK - I said that because I'm hoping to give you some balance in the responses here. I always believe that if you don't hear and understand both sides, you can not make a good decision. What ever you decide I wish you great succes."

I'm not saying Michael should say no, but I think a good decision requires considering the pros and cons.

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

Oh yeah I agree nix on the sitka. Gilbert is the only classical builder of any note I've heard of building with sitka. I say go with euro stuff also. You can find BC in euro if you look.

David,
Thanks for the support. I expected someone would not read the entire post or think about what I was saying or the spirit in which it was said. That is the risk you take anytime you post especially when it is contrary to the popular opinion.

I hope that Michael understood what I was saying.
I think he'll make a great guitar and learn a lot for doing it. I don't know if the customer will like it, I suspect she will and I certainly hope she does.   

I suspect Billy was just reacting, not taking in the spirit of my post. I could be wrong.....

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

If it was me...but saddly it is not ... I would do it. With your talent, available resources and ability to analyze what she wants... it will be a great guitar. If she dosen't like it I would give her money back ....less deposit.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

[QUOTE=Billy T] What a load !!! [/QUOTE]
Now Billy, play nice! Unless, of course, you meant to say, "What a load of thoughtful opinions with which I may disagree, but will defend to the death your right to say them!"

Hey guys, I posted to hear all constructive thoughts not just to get my back patted. i can take it. I know many classical artists and their pick nature. That is my only concern. I am a steel string finger style player. That is the sound my ear is tuned to.

But like many have said, it is the challenge that drives me and any opportunity to expand your horizon is fill with risk.

I informed her yesterday that if she wishes I would take the order. She told me to come over next week to talk some more about it and possibly finalize the order.

We have been shopping for the BRW and the sets she has picked have all been over $700-900 on their own.

I will not step outside my normal deposit or warranty and I have explained that. But I have told her that we will work until we get the tone and playability the way she wants it.

MichaelP38997.9172106481

[quote]They tend to know their instruments better. [/quote]

    I've known some good classical players and many excellent luthiers build both! This kind of hedges me in substantially, because I have substantial regard for their abilities. I don't want to argue over this but I find that thinking pompous.

      The thought, that a classical player, "tends to know his intrument better", than a typical Jazz artist, let alone a CW player? I'll put Roy Clark up against any classical player "ever" and I "despise" CW.

      I have seen head bangers that literally live their instruments. I don't want to insult classical builders and players but that kind of thinking has no place with an honest mindset. Lest we forget your, "plucking plastic"!

   I really, really, hate to quote a Nazi, but it is pertinent, "Everytime I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun!" - Baron Ulrich Friedrich Wilhelm Joachim
Von Ribbentropp

    The subtlety of this elitest thinking is only exceeded by it's inaccuracy! I'm sorry Steve, I am personally offended at the, perhaps, unintended, stratification of ability. I think you need to learn some respect!

I truly apologize if this seems/is harsh, but, yes, I understood the spirit of your post!

Sorry guys!!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Out of curiosity, is she requesting a historical copy -- hauser, fleta, etc. or your own version?

Research on historicals seems to absorb a lot of time.Marc38998.3541087963

[QUOTE=Billy T] [quote]They tend to know their instruments better. [/quote]

    I've known some good classical players and many excellent luthiers build both! This kind of hedges me in substantially, because I have substantial regard for their abilities. I don't want to argue over this but I find that thinking pompous.



Sorry guys!![/QUOTE]

I don't think it's a case of them knowing their instruments better, it's a case of having much much more of a preconceived notion of what their instrument is supposed to sound like. Aside from pre-war Martin fans, it seems to me that the fan base for steel string guitars is much more open to having a positive response to the sound of a given guitar in and of itself (i.e., without a lot of reference to other guitars). The classical community seems to have a much more uniform sense of what
a guitar is supposed to be - or, if it's not uniform, it seems that any given musician "hears" what that guitar is supposed to be independently of the sound of a real instrument in anyone's hands.

Comments based on my very, very limited experience. (Finishing up 1st classical, working on 2 more and a flamenco, hoping to get some credible initial feedback to work from).

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

[QUOTE=Billy T]
....
I'll put Roy Clark up against any classical player "ever" and I "despise" CW.

...
Lest we forget your, "plucking plastic"!
...

[/QUOTE]

apples and oranges, otoh that tremolo at 3:58 minutes looks pretty tough.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6637942068014668325

In trying to help Michael see a possible other side, I wrote what I did above based on person observations and things I have read. Your experience may be different Tat is OK.
What I was trying to say I think is said much better in an article by Ervin Somogyi. Below is an excerpt. Click here to read the whole article.
[QUOTE] I’ve been building guitars for 22 years. I started out building flamenco guitars, which are my first real love. I still play them. Flamenco sank its harpoon into me early on and hasn’t let go; it’s a wonderful music.

The flamenco crowd, I soon learned, is not able to support a luthier. They have enough money to buy themselves Gaulois cigarettes, but that’s about it. The next logical step was to make classic guitars. I quickly found that the classical players are, to the luthier, not a very user-friendly group. They are picky and critical, and since I basically didn’t know what I was doing I found it impossible to please them. It was not a happy experience.

Steel string guitar people have a very different mind set. They are by and large prone to being uncritically friendly, accepting, and encouraging. Their comments are liberally peppered with statements like "Wow!" and "That’s great!" I found their company very appealing. I was able to thus delude myself that I was doing something worthwhile — until 1977, when I was invited to participate as one of seven exhibiting luthiers at the important Carmel Classic Guitar Festival. It was a turning point for me. Seeing my instruments next to those of serious and competent luthiers forced me to reevaluate the quality of the work I had been doing. Up to that point I had managed to live a fantasy and make a very meager living at it. I’ve solved one of those problems since, but I’m still working on the second one.

In spite of their critical stance, the classical crowd has a very useful tool: a disciplined approach which is in large measure missing among steel string luthiers. The classical guitar people that I meet really seem to pay attention to what they’re doing in an organized way. They measure, they listen, they interact much more freely and much more sophisticatedly with guitar players. They have a greater vocabulary in common about tone color, what the guitars do, what they don’t do. Steel string guitar people do not yet have the tradition of this kind of discipline, but I think that will change when the more freeflowing character of the steel string guitar world recognizes the benefit and advantage of it. [/QUOTE] here
Michael,
Best of luck with the this build and congratulations. Please keep us updated and show us some pictures.SteveS38998.6723842593

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.